Melinda Wenner Moyer and "How to Raise Kids Who Aren't Assholes"
An interview with science journalist Melinda Wenner Moyer about not rescuing our kids from their own feelings, the struggle to get out the door in the morning, and more.
This week I’m so excited to bring you an interview with Melinda Wenner Moyer, a science journalist whose debut book “How to Raise Kids Who Aren’t Assholes” was published in July 2021. Melinda and her husband are parents of two elementary school-age children. You can hear more of my conversation with Melinda by listening to the audio version of this newsletter: Episode 2: Melinda Wenner Moyer
Tell me a little bit about your book and how it came about:
I had been writing about science and medicine for almost 15 years. When I had kids, I realized science was also a really useful tool for answering my own parenting questions. I started writing a parenting column for Slate where I answered my own and other parents’ questions.
And then a couple of years ago, I started getting really frustrated and worried by all the bad behavior that I was seeing happening all around me: politicians that I felt were acting in unsavory ways, the Me Too movement, and I also had seen some statistics suggesting that bullying was going up in some schools and hate crimes as well. I really started thinking about the implications of all of this for my kids. What were they learning from all of this, from their friends, from the media, and who were they going to grow up to be? I realized that I wanted to make sure they grew up to be good human beings, and that was when I realized that I could write a book about this.
What do you think makes it so hard for us as parents to do the right thing? Sometimes we know it’s the right thing to do, but it’s harder to translate that into action.
For many of us, we were probably raised by parents who told us Buck up, it’s not a big deal. And parenting is so reactive and emotional for us. It’s hard to access that rational part of our brain when our kid is screaming at the top of our lungs.
There are many things (that) come from a well-intentioned place, but actually end up being a little counterproductive.
One of the big things that has changed for me as a parent is how I respond when my kids are upset, having meltdowns, sad or angry. My instinct as a parent was often to try to rescue my kids from their feelings and say, Why are you so upset? This is not a big deal. Why are you so sad about this? Don’t get so upset. To kind of minimize their feelings. It’s really saying to them, It’s unacceptable to be having these feelings. What the research really shows is for us to let them have those feelings, to validate them, to acknowledge them. Certainly we can set limits on what it’s OK to do, but to really take the time to acknowledge and to basically let them feel like, These feelings are OK. It’s not bad to have feelings.
And also, in talking about our own feelings,this ultimately helps our kids sit with their feelings and learn how to manage them and handle them, because they really can only get to the point of being able to work through them if they’re allowed to have them. Talking about feelings is really important for the development of theory of mind — the ability to put ourselves in other people's shoes. You have to be fluent in the language of recognizing emotions and to be able to really understand what someone else is going through — this skill is really important for the development of empathy and helpfulness.
When you’re working, where are your kids?
Usually at school, but the pandemic has messed everything up. Last year, I basically worked while they were in school. I have just re-hired an after-school babysitter, and she hangs out with them, and drives them around to sports, so I can work until 6 p.m. most days. We’re just getting back into a longer work schedule, and I do feel guilty sometimes, because I can hear my daughter getting upset about something when I’m in here working.
If my child gets upset about something that I just don’t understand, those are the times when I’m most likely to snap. It’s like, I don’t have time for you to have your feelings!
What’s challenging about parenting for you at this time in your life?
I worry about my daughter and the transition back to school right now. They were in a small outdoor school last year (and there’s so much privilege involved in that decision), but we transitioned back to the public school, and she is really shy. She didn’t know where the bathroom was and she was too scared to ask her teacher, so she just held it all day and came home and was miserable and scared and sad. She was really upset, and I wanted her to have the space to be upset, so I just acknowledged how hard that must have been first. Then I tried to brainstorm with her, OK, what are some ways we could figure out where the bathroom is? Do you think you could ask your teacher? No, she didn’t want to ask her teacher. So I said, Let’s talk about something else you could do. And eventually we came up with something she felt comfortable with.
Compared to the household you grew up in, what’s one thing you’re doing differently as a parent?
We talk about a lot of things happening in the world. We talk about a lot of issues that I think my parents kind of protected me against and thought, That’s not something she needs to know. I share stuff going on in my own life — in a careful way, so as not to burden them with problems. If I had a tough day at work, I will talk about why it was hard. And also we talk a lot about race and racism and sexism and consent and bullying — a lot more explicit conversations about things than I certainly had with my parents as a kid.
What’s something you swore you would never do as a parent that you have absolutely done?
I didn’t think I was going to yell as much as I found myself yelling. I remember as a teenager I yelled a lot, I remember yelling at my parents, but I probably went 20 years where I didn’t think I had a temper. I really didn’t get angry much, I felt like I’m just a calm and collected person, and I would like judge people who lost their temper. Then I had kids and I found I would get so mad so easily about the stupidest stuff. That was definitely a huge surprise. My temper came back so quickly. And I had to read Carla Naumburg’s book (“How to Stop Losing Your Sh*t with Your Kids”), so that certainly helped.
What did you look at when choosing a school for your kids?
What’s really important to me and one thing I loved about the school we found last year is how socially and emotionally supportive the school atmosphere was. Academics, of course, matter, and I want my kids to learn, and have their brains grow, but it’s really important to me that the staff and the teachers are also responsive and sensitive to temperament and teaching social-emotional skills. From what I see, there’s a lot of good things that can come out of a really supportive atmosphere, not punitive.
Tell me something your kids do that really pushes your buttons:
It’s often in the context where we’re in a rush, where there’s a schedule we have to follow. My husband’s now going back into the city for work four days a week, so it’s my responsibility to get my kids on the bus and get everything ready. So I feel that stress very acutely in the morning. If my child gets upset about something that I just don’t understand, those are the times when I’m most likely to snap. It’s like, I don’t have time for you to have your feelings!
Tell me something wonderful about your kid(s):
My 7-year-old is an incredibly empathic and generous kid. She loves to share, she loves to intuit what somebody wants or needs and then provide it, and she’s very good at it. She'll be like Do you need a backrub? Just really thoughtful and generous, and really affectionate too.
My son is 10 now, and I am loving this time with him. He's very introverted, but funny and really sweet, and I feel like we’re just hitting a golden moment. It’s just a really fun time where I feel like all my interactions with him are positive.
Thanks again to Melinda for speaking with me. I highly recommend subscribing to Melinda’s newsletter, “Is My Kid the Asshole?” You can also catch Melinda in conversation with Dr. Robin Berman on Nov. 4 in a virtual event presented by the Open Mind Institute. If you enjoyed today’s newsletter, please be sure to check out the audio version, and maybe invite a friend to subscribe?